Curse

kostolomac · Jul 06, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

well since i don't have faction yet (screams!!!) i run MoR instead of AP.
this works well

MoR
CoP
CoF
mistrust
empathy
sunspear res
GoLE
shatter hex

this was modified from a wiki build and i seem to do more dmg then my Illusion Damage build which i find weird, because every gives glory to ineptitude and his cousins

I would kick CoF or shatter hex and put [guilt]. It's an awesome spell , stops nasty enemy spells while being also a good e-management tool.

@Skye Marin: the spear build looks very fun , gotta try it sometime.

isamu kurosawa · Jul 10, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

To expand on my previous discord team build i posted here is the mesmer version of the bar i have been using to vanq 4 man areas. It isn't as effective as the other in areas with hex removal though but you should be able to take extra players with you for that as thre isn't realy serious hex removal in small party areas.

[build prof=me/a fast=12+1+1 deadly=12 insp=3+1][assassins promise][you move like a dwarf][ebon vanguard assassin support][finish him][signet of recall][scorpion wire][inspired hex][resurrection signet][/build]

Concept is simple. Cast sin support, dwarf and sins promise on target and let the discorders spike it. Use finnish him on foes with larger hp pools. Skills recharge, do it again.
Signet of recall works wanders for extra energy management if you need it. Scorpion wire is a backup hex just incase, also works as a KD.

Inspired hex and res sig are optional slots and probably wont be needed. inspired is a good way of getting a backup hex in certain areas though.

I have been running it on my mes who has 10 norn, 9 dwarf and 6 vanguard but it should still work well with lower ranks as the real damage comes from the 3x discord.

The only problem i find with this build is my heroes don't prioritise discord use over other skills as much as they did with the shared burden setup. Binding their discord to your keyboard solves that problem though.

I have been tearing through 4 man zones without any deaths so far.

Note:
Multiple copies of sig do stack. Casting one, then casting it again before it ends does not overwrite the previous version. The first copy still counts down normally, giving you it's energy as it should. This causes massive energy gain in the build.

JDRyder · Jul 10, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can do direct damage with skills like e-burn and e-surge, but they can't match the DPS of fire and earth eles.

Cause its not a ele or a DPS class, Mesmer is a support class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can do curse damage, but they can't match the DPS a necro can do with Spiteful Spirit (+ Reckless Haste) + Mark of Pain + Barbs.

mesmer is not a DPS class :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can do some melee shutdown, but they can't shut down as many attackers as quickly and effectively as an ele warder or a curse necro with Enfeebling Blood + Reckless Haste(/Shadow of Fear).

ummm [fevered dreams]+[blinding flash]

. wards you to be in them and if theres AoE thats gg and necro are slower and you dont get mass blind with them just weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can do some interrupts/caster shutdown, but they can't do so as continuously and as cheaply (energy-wise or skillslot-wise) as a ranger with skills like Broadhead Arrow, Magebane Shot, Distracting Shot, Concussion Shot, and Savage Shot.
I might add that one skill that seems to show some promise here is Arcane Conundrum, which provides some AoE shutdown, albeit "light" shutdown, that rangers can't really match well (Choking Gas requires foes to stay bunched). But one skill does not a build make.

why do so many people say they need more energy with mesmers? [guilt][leech signet][power drain] or hell even[ether signet] rangers have a delay in interrupts as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can cause and spread conditions, but this seems to rarely accomplish anything more than just causing 10 degen -- something a necro can do on an AoE basis with just 2 non-elite skillslots (Rotting Flesh + Well of Suffering). So far, I'm not finding ways to keep mobs consistently covered with non-trivial conditions like deep wound, dazed, blind, or weakness. (Maybe once I cap Fevered Dreams?)

if you were able to keep dazed, blind and a lot of degen on every thing all the time, why not just have a IWIN button?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can use IW plus a bunch of defensive skills to fight melee, but their DPS and tanking ability is lower than a warrior or dervish (or even an assassin).

mesmer = not DPS class

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A mesmer can do e-denial better than any other class, but e-denial is nearly pointless in PvE.

it can be done and its also AoE, but i dont like the E-denial builds for pve that much, but in some areas they can work nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

So, there's your challenge mesmer fans: Find me a way to do one of the tasks on the list as well as every other class, or find me a task worth doing that I left off the list that a mesmer can do as well as every other class.

Let's hear those builds!

I use this build most the time
[build=OQNDAowjOFgcQPgIgG1AuAPA]

I Know I got in to this thread late but i saw it and was like wtf :P

Chthon · Jul 10, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I Know I got in to this thread late but i saw it and was like wtf :P

You should have read the rest of the thread before posting.
You should probably read this entire thread also.

Fleur De Lyss · Jul 10, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Actually, they did; and, actually, it's not.

Signet of Illusions is an amazing skill, you're obviously not using it right.

Pair it with Smooth Criminal, Arcane Larceny, Arcane Thievery, and Arcane Mimicry And not only can you play as any profession you want, but you can also test out many builds and be a complete buff to the team.

JDRyder · Jul 10, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You should have read the rest of the thread before posting.
You should probably read this entire thread also.

i did and didnt seem that i missed much, just the same people TRYING to make mesmer look bad and getting owned by Ensign on page 2 "that was end of thread imo"

isamu kurosawa · Jul 11, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleur De Lyss

Signet of Illusions is an amazing skill, you're obviously not using it right.

Pair it with Smooth Criminal, Arcane Larceny, Arcane Thievery, and Arcane Mimicry And not only can you play as any profession you want, but you can also test out many builds and be a complete buff to the team.

Using your oponents skills only works well in certain areas. Most fo the time the skills you get end up like mashing a random build with no synergy or goal.

FoW is a good example however as you can effectively run as an [[spiteful spirit|ss] mesmer. You can also use [[inspired hex] and [[revealed hex] to keep those hexes off your own team while placing them on foes.

horseradish · Jul 11, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I think SoI should be changed to mesmer skills only. As it is now, it just promotes degenerate builds that have very little representation of what a mesmer is. When I play a mesmer, I play a mesmer, not an ele, necro, or monk.

Unfortunately, what a Mesmer has to offer in PvE is very limited, so SoI is abused as an outlet.

upier · Jul 11, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

I think SoI should be changed to mesmer skills only. As it is now, it just promotes degenerate builds that have very little representation of what a mesmer is. When I play a mesmer, I play a mesmer, not an ele, necro, or monk.

Unfortunately, what a Mesmer has to offer in PvE is very limited, so SoI is abused as an outlet.

It should stay the way it is.
It's crap - so there is no need to nerf it.
In PvE you have the chance to run 3 PvE skills - which means you have 200 attribute point to spend on 5 skills.
And considering how craptastic FC is - this means you can pretty much max out two lines. Which means you already achieved the effect that you'd otherwise need an elite for.

Use SoI if you like. PvE leaves enough room for error.
So you might as well be it.

(Ohh and I do hope that the people that are using Larceny/Thievery aren't using SoI BEFORE you use them to steal the spell. Because that's one of the most moronic things you can do in PvE.)

DarkNecrid · Jul 11, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

(Ohh and I do hope that the people that are using Larceny/Thievery aren't using SoI BEFORE you use them to steal the spell. Because that's one of the most moronic things you can do in PvE.)

If people can fail a non-elite area in HM with a party of 15, then I am sure that people do this quite often too. :/

Samra · Jul 14, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[*]A mesmer can do some melee shutdown, but they can't shut down as many attackers as quickly and effectively as an ele warder or a curse necro with Enfeebling Blood + Reckless Haste(/Shadow of Fear).

This is the weak point in Chthon's argument, in my opinion. Mesmer does melee shutdown better than any other profession, largely because the Blindness condition is the best way to shutdown melee, and Mesmer causes and spreads Blindness better than any other profession.

Let's look at the alternatives that Chthon raises. An Ele warder -- Ward Against Elements is a great (read: overpowered) spell, but it only gives you a 50% chance to block melee damage. Yes, it's cheap, so it's cost/benefit ratio is good, but it's only useful if you can get by with partial shutdown.

Why is the difference between 50% and 90% so important? Because 90% totally shuts down Warrior adrenaline generation and screws up assassin attack chains, while 50% still allows the meleer to function, albeit less effectively. (It's also worth noting that Blindness also works on projectiles, which makes it even better for PvE, where even casters use projectiles a lot.)

Enfeebling Blood is also no substitute for Blindness, because Weakness only reduces damage by 66% (not 90%) and doesn't cause the meleer to miss. That means it still permits adrenaline to be generated and assassin chains to work. Damage reduction is far worse than damage avoidance for that reason.

Reckless Haste and Shadow of Fear are also subpar shutdowns. One effectively reduces damage by 50%, the other increases misses by 50% but increases attack speed by 25% in the process.

Can a Ele warder or Curse Necro shutdown melee? Sure, just as a Mesmer can shutdown a caster pretty darn well. But Chthon argued that since a Mesmer can't shutdown casters as well as Rangers, there's no reason to bring a Mesmer. Fair enough. But the same is true for melee shutdown. If you want to shutdown Melee, why bring a subpar alternative, when you can have a Mesmer who can spam Signet of Midnight? (And can combine that with, say, Plague Sending to blind multiple foes?)

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

This is the weak point in Chthon's argument, in my opinion. Mesmer does melee shutdown better than any other profession, largely because the Blindness condition is the best way to shutdown melee, and Mesmer causes and spreads Blindness better than any other profession.

[blinding flash]?
Much easier for PvE.

DarkSpirit · Jul 14, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

[blinding flash]?
Much easier for PvE.

I think he meant Signet of Midnight.

[Signet of Midnight] > [Blinding Flash]

...the only drawback is, it is an elite, other than that the recharge can be shortened by stances, 0e, and the blindness lasts longer.

Samra · Jul 14, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Yep, I meant Signet of Midnight:

Quote:

If you want to shutdown Melee, why bring a subpar alternative, when you can have a Mesmer who can spam Signet of Midnight? (And can combine that with, say, Plague Sending to blind multiple foes?)

If your goal is the best melee shutdown, I think a SoM + Plague Sending build is powerful.

Chthon · Jul 14, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

Yep, I meant Signet of Midnight:

If your goal is the best melee shutdown, I think a SoM + Plague Sending build is powerful.

1. If you want to blind with a mesmer, use the build from post 134.

2. You clearly do not understand necromancer shutdown.

3. While a good mesmer blind build can rival a curse necromancer for shutdown, it can't do so while also rivaling it for damage. (Likewise AP-AE-CoP can rival a good curse necromancer for damage, but lacks shutdown.)

upier · Jul 14, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I think he meant Signet of Midnight.

[Signet of Midnight] > [Blinding Flash]

...the only drawback is, it is an elite, other than that the recharge can be shortened by stances, 0e, and the blindness lasts longer.

It's touch. I don't even touch foes enough to run Blackout (which REALLY is godly!) - so why the heck would I bother with SoM?
And elite. Which means no AP (or if you are a fan of conditions FD. But then again - why shutdown through conditions if you can kill?).

And as soon as you get BF over those 5 secs - you can constantly reapply it.

But then again - I'd still run a necro to shutdown melee.
Enfeebling is godly so you'll be running that for sure - so you might as well run of the other two goodies - RH/SoF.

kostolomac · Jul 14, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Most of my builds don't rely on an elite , SoM is a nice idea

Also , if you're short on necros , any class with 10 or so curses has godly anti-melee skills , i run enfeebling blood and some nice other curse skills on my bar when doing vanquishes.

Samra · Jul 14, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. You clearly do not understand necromancer shutdown.

I don't doubt that you're correct, since you seem like a very experienced player, and I'm pretty new. But I'd be interested in hearing you explain why necromancer melee shutdown is better than mesmer, if only for my own learning/edification.

Quote:

3. While a good mesmer blind build can rival a curse necromancer for shutdown, it can't do so while also rivaling it for damage. (Likewise AP-AE-CoP can rival a good curse necromancer for damage, but lacks shutdown.)

Isn't this counter to the whole thought experiment you've set up? In other words, if a mesmer Blind build was slightly better than a curse necromancer for melee shutdown, wouldn't that fulfill the conditions in your initial post, even if the mesmer build couldn't do anything else well and the necro was otherwise superior? The mesmer build would, then, be best at a specific (and important) role, even if the overall build was more focused/less versatile than the necro build.

DarkSpirit · Jul 14, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It's touch. I don't even touch foes enough to run Blackout (which REALLY is godly!) - so why the heck would I bother with SoM?
And elite. Which means no AP (or if you are a fan of conditions FD. But then again - why shutdown through conditions if you can kill?).

And as soon as you get BF over those 5 secs - you can constantly reapply it.

It is a touch skill that Blinds immediately, so it doesn't matter if it is melee range. It is more godly than blackout, since you still get hit through blackout and blackout doesn't affect +damage enchantments, stances, etc that are already cast. For blind, once the attacker is blinded you can basically ignore him 90% of the time.

SoM recharge time is shorter than the length of the blindness inflicted so you can keep the target blinded forever if you wish. Even Ash Blast at level 12 (max level a primary mesmer can get to), is still shorter than SoM, and you need the target to be knocked down first.

Quote:

But then again - I'd still run a necro to shutdown melee.
Enfeebling is godly so you'll be running that for sure - so you might as well run of the other two goodies - RH/SoF.

Enfeebling is weakness, not blind. I dont think I need to go into why Blind > Weakness, you all already know that right? Weakness has always been easier to inflict than blind. Blind is godly against physical attackers, just like Dazed is godly against casters, which is why they are meant to be harder to inflict.

You still get 30%+ of the damage on a weakness inflicted target and weakness does not apply to damage bonuses gained from attack skills. Blind is superior to weakness.

Chthon · Jul 15, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samra

I don't doubt that you're correct, since you seem like a very experienced player, and I'm pretty new. But I'd be interested in hearing you explain why necromancer melee shutdown is better than mesmer, if only for my own learning/edification.

1. AoE. Enfeebling Blood is "nearby" range. Ineptitude is single-target. SoM is single-target. Epidemic and Plague Sending (+SoM) are merely "adjacent" range. EB is going to affect more monsters. Would you rather have 6 monsters doing 33% damage or 3 monsters doing 10% damage, plus 3 monsters doing 100% damage?

(Btw: This is why Fevered Dreams makes for some OK-ish builds. Blind over "in the area" range is incredibly effective melee shutdown.)

2. Reckless Haste has a synergy with Spiteful Spirit in normal mode. The faster the monsters attack, the faster they kill themselves. In hard mode, the monsters don't get the attack speed boost because their HM speed boost counts towards, and reaches, the cap. Either way, you win.

As for the other major shutdown hexes, Meekness has a huge "in the area" radius, and SoF is used as a fish hex when you really need to get hexes to stick to a removal-heavy mob (such as HM Jade Bros).

3. SoM is suicidally stupid in harder PvE content. Sure, you blind your target instantly. But his friends are going to whack you really hard while you do. Even if you've got epidemic or plague sending ready to go to put an AoE blind up a second later, you're still likely to get yourself killed running up and touching melee monsters.

Quote:

Isn't this counter to the whole thought experiment you've set up? In other words, if a mesmer Blind build was slightly better than a curse necromancer for melee shutdown, wouldn't that fulfill the conditions in your initial post, even if the mesmer build couldn't do anything else well and the necro was otherwise superior? The mesmer build would, then, be best at a specific (and important) role, even if the overall build was more focused/less versatile than the necro build.

Perhaps. I'm of two minds about it. In a way, mandragor-in-a-can and AP-AE-CoP meet my requirements. If I had a situation where melee shutdown was of the utmost importance, or of very little importance, I'd consider a mesmer for a party slot over a necro. Insofar as those situations are pretty rare, it shows how my original post was not perfectly well thought-out.

(In any event, I'd probably take a AP-AE-CoP over any sort of "nuker" elementalist. So score one for the mesmers I guess.)